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#159263 - 12/15/04 09:56 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Rick Donaldson
Time Traveler
Senior Investigator
Registered: 05/04/01
Posts: 6973
Loc: Colorado Springs
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quote:
Rick, Yes it is difficult to tell who is stating the facts in a truthful way or are they distorted for a specific slant. However, the ozone IS being depleted. Have you ever been to Central America? Guatemela City's air is thick with pollution. Are you saying or supporting the statement that all of the fumes, from whatever source, are NOT harming the air and the natural environment?
There ARE regions of Antartic that are melting and breaking off. How would you explain these things?
Thanks.
annmar
No, Annmar, I will contend that Ozone is NOT being depleted. In fact, I can give you some information on this.
I will say first that pollution in the air due to cars generating smog is a concern, yes, on days when the weather patterns in particular cause things like inversion layers, a layer of cold air ABOVE the warm air, which can hold in the pollution to prevent it from spreading out and stabilizing.
So cities tend to be more polluted than the country. Period.
Let's talk about the "hole in the ozone". It wasn't until roughly the mid 1980s that this so-called "hole" was discovered on a space shuttle mission. Immediately there was a call out of Green forces and various things were pointed to, eventually ending with the chloroflorocarbons in spray cans being the culprit.
However, as recently as LAST YEAR (and I've posted this data on this site someplace, I'm not going to go hunt for it again, when you are perfectly capable of doing so) it was noticed the hole is CLOSING. That's right, closing.
Greenies are claiming it's a victory for their side.
I say... Bull$hit.
Here's why.
For Eons the Sun has been burning in the sky.
Every 11 years we have a peak and a valley in the sun spot cycle. In case you're not aware of this, sunspots are massive magnetic storms that occur on the surfaces of the sun, and appear as black spots. 
The spots cause eruptions in the sun, flares, coronal mass ejecta (CMEs) and intense forms of radiation to spray outward from the sun. Some of the extra radiation hits the earth.
It plays havoc with our ionosphere, and in general our weather patterns.
In fact, the more of this extra solar radiation hitting us that happens the more our planet's weather is kicked up.
What has this to do with ozone? Simple. Storms.
Every time there is a lightning strike massive amounts in hundreds, perhaps thousands of gallons of ozone generated.
Ozone which is actually O3 is deadly to life. At the same time, heavier than air. It sinks instead of rises. It also gets kicked around by atmospheric turbulence, winds and eventually carried aloft.
I think, and this is my theory only, that every 11 years that "hole" grows smaller as the ozone generated by more storms around the planet creates more ozone. And in the ensuing years as the sun activity dies down, the hole grows larger.
You'll note the "hole" only appears around the poles too, and not around the whole planet. You'll also note that in the coming years it will get bigger (and the greenies will blame the lack of Kyoto signatures, or Bush, or some other thing, but especially the US government for this problem) and in another few years, after the next solar sunspot peak, we'll again see the "hole" close up.
For the record, Mr.P. icecores go back a lot longer than 8200 years. They have pulled ice cores from tirasic, permian and other "lost" eras of geologic history as well, and in fact, there is even a theory (and factual evidence) that one great mass extinction event around the Permian tiem frame was directly related to massive amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere... no men werre there to burn oil then, either.
_________________________
Ad astra per aspera
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#159265 - 12/15/04 10:08 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Rick Donaldson
Time Traveler
Senior Investigator
Registered: 05/04/01
Posts: 6973
Loc: Colorado Springs
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Prophets, False Prophets and Profiteers (Environmentalists, "Global Warming" and Kyoto)
CFP ^ | December 15, 2004 | Paul Driessen
Some 10,000 delegates, scientists, activists, politicians and journalists have convened in Argentina for the COP-10 confab on “solutions” to the theoretical problem of “dangerous” and “catastrophic” global climate change. Months of hype and consternation preceded the event, to pressure the United States and Australia into ratifying the Kyoto Protocol.
“The Day After Tomorrow” and interminable activist group press releases provided appropriate horror movie scenarios. A hearing chaired by Senator John McCain promoted his prophecy that a climate Armageddon is near--and his legislative palliative.
A new report warned that North Pole temperatures are rising. Science magazine asserted that not one of 928 studies supported the position that climate change is naturally occurring.
UK science advisor Sir David King said global warming is a greater threat than terrorism, and greenhouse emissions will have to be cut by 80 percent by 2050 to avoid massive coastal flooding due to melting Greenland ice sheets. European Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy hinted that the EU would give preferential access to its markets for poor countries that accept Kyoto.
The hysteria and caterwauling swamped essential facts.
Actual satellite and weather balloon data--as well as historic and geologic records of numerous warming and cooling cycles – contradict computer models, theories and assertions that humans are causing disastrous weather events and climate shifts. Arctic temperatures were even higher in the 1930s, before cooling again for several decades. Science’s editors didn’t mention countless studies that analyze natural warming and cooling cycles – or the fact that 18,000 scientists have signed a petition saying they see “no convincing scientific evidence” that humans are disrupting the earth’s climate.
All the countries in the world together are responsible for less than 3 percent of the Earth’s total greenhouse gas emissions (the rest are natural), and the U.S. emits only 1/5 of this. The Kyoto treaty would force the U.S. to slash emissions and fossil fuel use by some 25 percent over the next decade – an impossible task that would cost millions of jobs and over $300 billion annually, according to government and other studies.
Even perfect compliance with Kyoto would keep average global temperatures from rising only 0.3 degrees less than they would by 2050 in the absence of a climate treaty. Actually stabilizing greenhouse gases and temperatures would require 19 to 40 “successful climate treaties” – causing ruinous social and economic impacts, and diverting resources from solvable problems like AIDS, malaria, poverty and poor sanitation.
What then energizes all these false prophets of doom and their demands for immediate drastic action? Simply put, profits and power.
Just the 12 largest environmental lobby groups in the U.S. had a combined budget of $2 billion in 2003. Collectively, the global environmental movement has a war chest of up to $8-billion a year. That buys a lot of influence, but apparently it’s never enough. As National Audubon Society chief operating officer Dan Beard has admitted, “What you get in your mailbox is a never-ending stream of crisis-related shrill material designed to evoke emotions, so that you will sit down and write a check.”
Global warming is big business. The U.S. government ladled out $15 billion on global warming research and “education” between 1992 and 2000. The United Nations spent billions more, as did the European Union, and big foundations provided hundreds of millions more.
Unfortunately, most government money goes to researchers who support the position that human-caused climate change is a serious problem. Foundation money does likewise, for operations like the Pew Charitable Trusts’ Global Climate Change Center, and an International Institute for Sustainable Development $700,000 study of “how farmers in India may be vulnerable” to problems supposedly caused by “economic globalization and climate change.”
“Scientists must be allowed to conclude that we don’t have a problem,” MIT professor Richard Lindzen insists, and funding should not be based on politics and preconceptions. What’s needed are nonpartisan funding mechanisms to support climate research
Climate treaties are driven by near-religious convictions, Lindzen and author-producer- molecular biologist Michael Crichton observed. This further politicizes science, makes rational debate unlikely, and keeps people perpetually anxious – and in desperate search of saviors.
“To capture the public imagination,” global warming scientist-activist and former global cooling false prophet Stephen Schneider once said, “we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.”
Former Boston Globe editor Ross Gelbspan urged a Washington, DC audience in July 2000: “Not only do journalists not have a responsibility to report what skeptical scientists have to say about global warming. They have a responsibility not to report what these scientists say.” In a similar vein, Time science editor Charles Alexander told a Smithsonian Institution conference: “I would freely admit that on [global warming] we have crossed the boundary from news reporting to advocacy.”
Many climate alarmists see the Kyoto and other treaties as instruments of international power politics. Ultimately, they seek to give activists and centralized government bureaucrats control over fossil fuel use, economic growth, lifestyles, housing and transportation.
EU Environment Commissioner Margot Wallstroem says Kyoto “is not a simple environmental issue, where you can say scientists are not unanimous. This is about international relations, this is about the economy, about trying to create a level playing field for big businesses throughout the world. You have to understand what is at stake and that is why it is serious,” she declaimed. And French President Jacques Chirac has termed the Kyoto Protocol “the first component of authentic global governance.”
Even now, proposals are being floated in Argentina that would allocate the right to emit carbon on a per capita basis throughout the world. Eventually, the scheme would ensure that every person has an “equitable” right to the same (minuscule) amount of energy – whatever global bureaucrats and activists determine is “appropriate” and “sustainable.”
“Environmentalists are quick to accuse their opponents in business of having vested interests,” The Economist has observed. “But their own incomes, their fame and their very existence can depend on supporting the most alarming versions of every environmental scare. Pressure groups, journalists, and fame seekers will no doubt continue to peddle ecological catastrophes at an undiminishing speed.”
Actually, industry has much stronger motivations for honesty than do the activists, Daniel Koshland, Jr. noted when he was Science magazine editor. “Businesses today have product liability and can incur legal damages if they place a dangerous product on the market.” Environmental pressure groups “have no such constraints.”
All this should be on everyone’s mind--in developed and developing countries alike--as COP-10 attendees debate the merits and demerits of Quixotic proposals to “control” the world’s climate.
Paul Driessen is senior policy advisor for the Congress of Racial Equality, Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow and Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise, and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green Power · Black Death (www.Eco-Imperialism.com)
_________________________
Ad astra per aspera
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#159267 - 12/15/04 11:18 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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ExpandedMInd
Member
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 1633
Loc: Denver, Colorado
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What we know about climate change:
We know that 13,000 years ago much of North Amreica was covered in ice.
We know that 700 years ago the earth was much WARMER than today. (Greenland was green, hence the name; now it is ice-covered. Grapes grew in England, forget that now.) Somehow man survived a warmer climate than today's, before there was much burning/polluting happening.
We know the climate on this planet changes a LOT with no help or hindrance from man.
What we DON'T know about climate change:
We don't know what percentage of any current warming trend is natural, and what percentage is human-caused. Has man caused 10%, 2%, 60% of any current changes? No scientist can quantify that. Which means scientists can't tell us what effect Kyoto or any other efforts will have, if any. They can only guess.
Temprature records going back 100 years are a tiny blink of time in geologic terms. We would need good records going back thousands of years to learn much about climate change.
For all we know, human-caused warming could slow the coming of another ice age, temporarily saving our butts. One large volcanic eruption could cause us to have no summers for years, and very cold winters, changing the entire picture completely.
Why we don't need to worry:
Neither Democrats or Republicans are stupid enough to sign Kyoto at a cost of $150 billion a year. Clinton knew better than to push it, and the Senate voted 97-0 against ratification during Clinton's second term. The current congress won't ratify either. All is well.
EM 
_________________________
Question for my Socialist friends: Why are others bound to do for you what you won't do for yourselves?
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#159269 - 12/15/04 02:55 PM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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ExpandedMInd
Member
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 1633
Loc: Denver, Colorado
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Master P: I know you directed your statements to Rick, but since this is an open thread:
2/3 of the countries in the UN are dictatorships, so your statement above about a higher level of "democracy" is ridiculous and laughable. The UN is not a world govt, thank goodness. Let me know when all those governments are elected by their citizens, which will make them legitimate.
Kyoto is tough on all the countries that have signed it? This is even more funny. Many countries that signed it, like China and India, and the rest of the Third World, don't have to cut any emissions, and may emit whatever they please. Perhaps you need to read the treaty.
Most of the European countries that have ratified the treaty are not meeting the emission targets, and are emitting more greenhouse gases than allowed. Signing is nice, but meaningless, as is the case with most treaties of this kind.
It is estimated that Kyoto would cost the US between $150 and 225 billion a year. The worst environmental problem in the world today is dirty water. Bad water is making people sick and killing people as I write. For a one-time cost of $75 billion, we could give everyone in the world clean drinking water. That should be a priority, rather than this dream world of warming climate problems.
The Copehagen Consensus, a meeting of top world scientists, including 3 Noble Laureates, met this May identified unclean water as the most pressing problem in the world today. They put global warming at the bottom of their priority list.
Cut CO2 emissions? Great idea, and the US is doing it now.
EM
_________________________
Question for my Socialist friends: Why are others bound to do for you what you won't do for yourselves?
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#159270 - 12/15/04 07:57 PM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2886
Loc: Atlanta
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Ah, at long last, some reasonable voices speaking up on this planetary mania. My thanks to Rick, Phil, and others on the brave, politically incorrect forefront.
When I first heard the term "global warming" decades ago, I thought "hogwarsh"! When I then saw which organizations jumped on the PR bandwagon, I knew that a major propaganda campaign was underway. Originally, raw data and the analyses were published in public media, and the conflicting conclusions were a hoot. Now, decades of government-grant research data are buried in DC and all we get is the frenetic articles written by journalism majors who couldn't statistically analyze their way out of wet paper bags. But they sell papers and magazines.
"“To capture the public imagination,” global warming scientist-activist and former global cooling false prophet Stephen Schneider once said, “we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.”" (Sounds like an eschatologist to me.  ) This is BLATANT manipulation of the public using the very worst of propaganda techniques!
And, as just demonstrated by Master P. - If you can't defend against contrary information, impune the character of the person who made it visible. A common propaganda technique of those who BELIEVE something, but don't KNOW diddley-squat about the subject.
This exponential campaign MAY be ONLY an attempt by dogooders to redistribute the wealth of the U.S. to other nations. But given all the Whos, the Whats, the Wheres, and the magnitudes over the last two decades - I suspect something far more sinister has been afoot for even more decades.
Is this the fall of the American "empire"? I think so. Is there decay within? I think increasing so for almost the last century. Is this the cause of the fall? No, it only accelerates it. Is there erosion caused by outside forces? Yes, and it has increased exponentially since the end of WW-2. And what were the situations of today's Whos back then??? Can I PROVE any of this? No, but the factual data supporting all of it outweighs the contrary data by more than 10 to 1.
Rejecting the Kyota Treaty was the finest thing done by Clinton and the Congress. But, it would not shock me if Fossil Man and the current Congress signed it. (If you're wondering about my political bias, the last time I voted Democratic was for JFK.)
Gosh, just WHEN am I going to find time to learn icecore technology? Thanks for the links. What you said of it made it sound a little flaky - pardon the pun.
_________________________
Before morning constitutional, "Dear goD, for the shit yoU are about to receive, yoU are welcome."
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