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#159271 - 12/16/04 06:48 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2919
Loc: Atlanta
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PHIL: I just went to the icecore link. Not such a big study after all. They talk about the "smearing" of CO2 in ice, but seem to deal with it appropriately with statistics and their cautious verbal conclusions. Did you note who their big sponsor is? No bias there, eh? But, if they're real scientists, they'll report true findings.
I was disappointed to see that the cores described go back ONLY 1,000 years. Maybe I can google something older.
They said that their cores are "accurately dated", but don't say how. Might have been in previous publication.
Given their healthy scientific caution, their conclusions were'nt near as "flaky" as I expected. Nor do they yet seem to be attempting to "snow" anyone re "global warming". ("The Devil made me do it!" - Geraldine) Thanks for the good start! Keep up the bravery!
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#159273 - 12/16/04 11:19 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2919
Loc: Atlanta
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PHIL: Yea, the rad fallout makes a great milepost. I was here in Atlanta measuring it by air sampling. But that would only carry forward in ice cores for 45 years, and, with some assumptions, backwards for that many. I doubt that 500 to a thousand years ago there was enough "dirt" in the polar air depositing on the surface in the warm season to make a discernable "ring" each year. A major volcanic eruption might, but I don't think we have hard dates on those going back 8,200 years. Back that far, they may use "decades per core inch", but that would necessitate assumptions re snow accumlation/year, no "melt years", etc. Well, you've piqued my interest, so will hafta go out 'n larn sum more.
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#159274 - 12/16/04 10:59 PM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Tripp
Member
Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 670
Loc: Valley Forge, PA
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Mr P
Here is a decent yet simplistic overview of ice core dating.
Imagine my joy at seeing the concluding paragraph and the tremendous synchronicity therein:
quote:
Worlds in Collision
The Vostok ice-core shows no effects of catastrophic geological changes. By this I mean no petroleum, no vermin, no weird Venus gasses, no red snow, no manna in amongst the layers. Also no evidence for rapid rotational changes in the earth, no floods, no major asteroid bombardments. Finally, there is absolutely positively fur-darn-tootin no evidence of the earth ever having occupied any position in the solar system other than that which it holds now.
Whoda thunk it, eh?
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#159276 - 12/17/04 12:56 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Tripp
Member
Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 670
Loc: Valley Forge, PA
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quote:
Originally posted by outcast:
which of course makes the whole study of the ice-core (or that specific zone sample) perfectly useless. since at least one of those events did happen.
Well, first I think your comments miss the context of the "evaluation". The author was appraising the referenced core analyses (made by others) in regard to Velikovskian level catastrophism ie. on a global scale. Context is everything. Second, the author was not speaking from any expertise nor was he making any scientific conclusions. The comments were more amusing in their address of Mr P's personal fascination: Velikovsky.
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#159277 - 12/17/04 01:48 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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TheObserver
Member
Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2062
Loc: Hawaii
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IMO,
The U.S. should not sign the Kyoto Treaty or Protocol or what ever it is called (it is all the same, anyway). It gives developing countries a pass on pumping pollutants into (their own) air and that is a huge mistake, if you ask me. In time those countries will ahve to deal with ecological problems that may be on a par of the "black cloud" and "killer fog" days of ol' London town.
Look at Mexico City (the planet's most polluted). Now that's a major problem area and will the Kyoto "piece of paper" turn things around? Not likely.
Europe has it's problems as well and I remember visiting Tokyo and Osaka in the 1960's (as well as LA) and I well remember the thick, brown smog that lay over everything like an ethereal, choking blanket. The future sure looked hopeless for human life back in those days.
What the Kyoto "parchment" really does is permit multi-national companies move their most toxic production facilities into non-developed countries without regulation under the pretext of "allowing economic developement" to "lift those countries up."
Developed countries do not need to sign the Kyoto "scrap of (used) toilet paper." People in the developed countries no longer stand for grossly polluting industries or plants or factories. Governments listen to environmental concerns and act when companies go too far. If that were not true, California and New York and London would still be under that brown blanket, and people would be dying in untold numbers. I'm not saying that the air in those aforementioned places is 100% safe and pollutant-free...I'm just saying that I remember what is was once like. You don't know what air pollution is like if you've never visited those places in the 1960's...you really have no idea...no idea at all.
Presently in the U.S I do not see any regression to what is was like back then. Industries have discovered that, among other things, it is cost effective to limit emissions of pollutants into the air. Bleching brown or black smoke was most often a sign of incomplete combustion of fuel. With companies watching their bottom lines ever more closely, companies are continuously looking into new technologies that will either save fuel or require less energy, thus lowering costs.
Along with the lowering of pollutants, companies have also lowered their liabilities. Insurers of those require some environmental precautions as well and the surrounding population benefits in having cleaner, breatheable air along with cleaner rivers, streams and lakes. So it is in the best interests of all parties to look out for the environment.
I do realize that during the developement of high tech and high tech industries that toxins and hazardous wastes inevitably will be produced. We have created ever increasingly difficult to dispose of materials. But industry can only survive if ways can be found to more safely disposing those by products and more needs to be done to find a way to reuse as many of those materials as we can, but the Kyoto "napkin" will not do that. Business economics will have to deal with all those problems and find workable solutions to them.
As far as "Global Warming" and "ozone holes" go, my opinion is that Global Warming is a natural, cyclical process as is the appearance of holes in the ozone layer, but I do make an exception or two regarding the ozone.
The biggest hole-punchers, imo, are space vehicles. The shuttle makes 'em and so do other high-lift, heavy-payload vehicles. But those holes are small compared to the whole layer and shouldn't pose that much of a problem. Ozone forms naturally by the interaction of the sun's energy with our oceans and atmosphere so it is constantly being replenished.
But teh phenomena of ozone holes should still be studied and followed.
_________________________
"The new can only be found in the unknown..."-Anon
"Fingunt simul creduntque."-Tacitus
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#159278 - 12/17/04 07:57 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2919
Loc: Atlanta
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TRIPP: BLESS you for the link to the ice core explanation.
As to the author's conclusions (and your glee) re catastrophism, the Devil is in the details. For the TOP half (1,406m), or the last 80,000 years, they sent samples of 1.5-2m to Grenoble for every 25 meters ~ 7%. The evidence of ANY of V's events of the last 3,600 years were MORE LIKELY to have been in the 93% NOT TESTED.
There is another anomalous piece of evidence to the whole "160,000 years" of this SHELF ice core. There is an ancient, leather maritime map showing an ice-free Antartica (except the MOUNTAIN peaks), with the shoreline and rivers accurately plotted, as verified by satellite mapping.
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Help elevate the status of Uranus from planet to god. Join "UP Uranus", see #250273, 6/27, 09:28AM
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#159279 - 12/17/04 09:30 AM
Re: There Is NO Man-Made Global Warming
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Rick Donaldson
Time Traveler
Senior Investigator
Registered: 05/04/01
Posts: 6985
Loc: Colorado Springs
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Greens Concede Kyoto Will Not Impact 'Global Warming'
CNSNews ^ | Dec 17, 2004 | Marc Morano
After a relentless attack on the United States for opposing the Kyoto Protocol, environmental groups concede the international treaty will have no impact on what they believe to be impending catastrophic global warming.
Despite the fact that green groups at the U.N. climate summit in Buenos Aires called President George Bush "immoral" and "illegitimate" for not supporting the Kyoto Protocol, the groups themselves concede the Protocol will only have "symbolic" effect on climate because they believe it is too weak. Kyoto is an international treaty that seeks to limit greenhouse gases of the developed countries by 2012.
"I think that everybody agrees that Kyoto is really, really hopeless in terms of delivering what the planet needs," Peter Roderick of Friends of the Earth International told CNSNews.com.
"It's tiny, it's tiny, tiny, it's tiny," Roderick said. "It is woefully inadequate, woefully. We need huge cuts to protect the planet from climate change."
But just because Kyoto may end up having little or no impact on the climate, that did not stop Roderick from blasting President Bush for the White House's environmental policies.
Roderick cited "deep psychological reasons" as to why the Bush administration opposed the Protocol.
"[Bush] comes across as not caring," Roderick said. "I am sure he does care in his own life personally about many things, [but] I think also that he is scared, he is fearful, he is fearful about wanting to continue in power.
"Somewhere in their hearts [the Bush administration doesn't] seem to care about the future of the planet and I think that is bad news for the world," Roderick added. "It is obviously deep psychological reasons, as to why individuals would feel that way ... [Bush] seems to have a vision of the world which is not recognized by millions and millions of people around the world."
Kyoto: 'Symbolic importance'
While Roderick dismisses the potential impact of the Kyoto Protocol, he believes the treaty is vital for a reason that has nothing to do with climate change.
"[The Protocol] is important more in the political message and the inspiration it is giving people around the world. People can say 'yeah, our politicians do care -- they are not just interested in power and their own greed and in their own money. They do care about the future of the planet,'" Roderick explained.
"How inspiring it would be for the leaders to get together and say 'yeah, we are going to do this, we are all in this together. That's, I think, the sort of symbolic importance of Kyoto, not the the sort of nitty-gritty commas and dots in the text [of the Protocol]," he added.
Roderick believes a global climate emergency can only be averted by a greenhouse gas limiting treaty of massive proportions. "We are talking basically of huge, huge cuts," said Roderick.
The most positive description of the Kyoto Protocol centers on it fostering the spirit of cooperation in the international community, according to Roderick.
"The best thing that can be said for it, is it's the first time that with the exception unfortunately of the United States, that the international community has said, 'We need to get together on this and we need international action.' That's the really important thing of Kyoto," Roderick said.
Kyoto: 'Important architecture'
Greenpeace International agreed that the Kyoto Protocol should only be an entry point for controlling greenhouse gas emissions. Jessica Coven, a spokesperson for the environmental group, told CNSNews.com that "Kyoto is our first start and we need increasing emissions cuts.
"We need all types of actions, but Kyoto is the important architecture for how we are going to move forward to curb the problem [of climate change]," Coven said.
"Global warming, as its name suggests, is a global problem and we need an international framework like Kyoto," she added. And despite the Protocol's limited impact, Coven said President Bush's decision not to support the treaty is "immoral."
The Inuit Circumpolar Conference, the Arctic group that announced their intention this week to seek a ruling from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights against the United States, "for causing global warming and its devastating impacts," also denigrated the global warming treaty.
"The Kyoto Protocol, although again achieved with great difficulty, doesn't even go near to what has to get done. It is not anywhere near to what we need in the Arctic," said Sheila Watt-Cloutier, chairwoman of Inuit Circumpolar Conference.
"Kyoto will not stop the dangerous sea level rise from creating these kinds of enormous challenges that we are about to face in the future. I know many of you here believe that we must go beyond [Kyoto]," she said during a panel discussion.
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Ad astra per aspera
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