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#165056 - 03/17/05 08:59 PM
Re: No Other Gods Before Me
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2919
Loc: Atlanta
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WALLIS: Sorry for the confusion. I am trying to establish the most credible info base possible from the OT regarding these "other gods" mentioned more than once by God to an alert Moses who told his people and somebody eventually wrote it down in Exodus. The "jealous" God said they existed, but were not MORE important than him (but might be peers?), and that the Hebrews should not worship them. It was apparently meet and right for other peoples to worship the "other gods". God obviously did not want to flatter the "other gods" by naming them. (Or else any names mentioned by God were forgotten or edited out of the Bible.) It's true that others gave them a variety of names. But most of these were "prophets" high on weeks of a diet of poppy flowers and having a hallucination or "vision" wherein they heard from "angels" who said God said, "Yada, yada, yada." This type of several-times-removed info has to be considered less reliable by any rational person. Further, many of these naming of the "other gods" by other biblical characters or writers/translators can be clearly analyzed as intended to cast aspersions upon, denigrate, dismiss these "other gods", or to so obfuscate the matter that none can see through it. Furthermore, somewhere between the traditions of the early OT times and the writings and subsequent translations, the "experts" felt the need to create a "boogeyman" of completely evil character and "Satan" (with all his nicknames) appears later in the OT. Every GOD-description of this character is of a God-serving angel! One has to go to much less direct and less credible sources in the OT to find this angel "fallen" and competing AGAINST God. And even later in the OT, these "evil" characteristics and nicknames are RETROACTIVELY applied to any other god/character which might have actually been god-peers of "God", all on the road to monotheism.
That's my take on the whole "other gods" matter in the OT. So I've been TRYING, with major help from others, to establish the most solid OT info base, then move to the noncanon OT sources for data that may be less "acceptable" but, perhaps, every bit as credible if it came out of the mouth of the Hebrew "God" talking about the "other gods" and, perhaps NAMING them! (Sans any prophets, hallucinogens, angels, etc.)
The rational. logical folks here can see several possibilities of where this might end up! I am consciously trying, AT THIS POINT, to AVOID the mention of Sitchin - as this completely turns OFF the vast majority of people. I am also trying, AT THIS POINT, to avoid the NAMES of the "other gods" which he and others put into public awareness. On a god-by-god basis, we may NOT get there with perfect matches. THAT is why the CREDIBILITY of the info SOURCES is so important, and ALSO why it's important - to ME, at least - to NOT YET make jumps ahead to the "Anunnaki hierarchy". To do so leaves logic GAPS which those who favor the "One True God, page one Genesis to last page Revelation" will jump into. I'd rather not give them the opportunity, as I certainly do NOT think we will end up where they, on faith alone, are.
Now, back to Step 2, the OT noncanon books of the A&P. The library copy which I used intermittently for a year or more was a single volume over 6" thick and included both the OT & NT noncanon books. Skim-reading the entire thing was a humongous task! (Mind you, I was looking for "natural events" which might relate to V.'s theory of inter-planetary events and found tons which he did not cite. But I couldn't help noticing, without capturing, references to "other gods", directions on how to have a "vision", and much other juicy stuff.) Assuming that none of us wants to take a year to skim for mentions of "other gods", is there an easier way using the power of computers??????
(Speaking of V., the LATE OT TIMES are when the Greeks and Romans began worshipping the "Gods" Venus and Mars, etc., and are NOT the "other gods" referred to in Exodus!" They do appear LATE in the OT under various names and add a lot of confusion, but they are not relevant - at least, to ME - to the earlier "other gods" for whom we are seeking names and personalities.
Have I clarified the confusion or added to it?
_________________________
Help elevate the status of Uranus from planet to god. Join "UP Uranus", see #250273, 6/27, 09:28AM
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#165058 - 03/18/05 05:05 AM
Re: No Other Gods Before Me
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Wallis
Member
Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 1754
Loc: Philippines
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Here's an interesting take on Baal:
Israeli concept of Baal
The Israelites never abandoned the worship of Yahweh. They simply added the worship of Ba‘al to their worship of Yahweh (called syncretism). They had one God for crises and another god for everyday life. The actual worship of Ba‘al was carried out in terms of imitative magic whereby sexual acts by both male and female temple prostitutes were understood to arouse Ba‘al who then brought rain to make Mother Earth fertile (in some forms of the myth, represented by a female consort, Asherah or Astarte).
The Israelites struggled with Ba‘al worship until the time of the exile, especially in the more agrarian areas of the northern Kingdom of Israel (also due to some degree to its official establishment as a state religion in the North for a time during the reign of Ahab and Jezebel, c. 850 BC). However, as Jeremiah makes clear, it was a recurring problem in the Southern Kingdom as well. Largely due to Jeremiah’s insistence that the nation would fall because of its lack of commitment to God exemplified in its dabbling in Ba‘al worship, the problem faded after the return from exile in 538. While there were traces of it later, Ba‘al worship was never again the problem that it was prior to the Exile. The Judaism that emerged after the exile in the reforms of Ezra and Nehemiah was passionately monotheistic, and has remained so ever since.
_________________________
"Do not seek for truth,
Merely cease to cherish your own ideas and opinions."
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#165059 - 03/18/05 06:54 AM
Re: No Other Gods Before Me
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Mr.P.
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 2919
Loc: Atlanta
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WALLIS: HOORAY for the temple prostitutes!  Ba'al musta been a horny god!
Strong's lists BAAL as "Chief god of the Canaanites". Note the small "g" and "chief", which says they had other, subordinate gods.
The first listing is Num 22:41 "...Balak took Balaam, and brought him up to the HIGH PLACES of Ba'al (Baalbec???), that thence he might see the utmost part of the people."
TORAH Num. 22:41 "...Balak took Balaam UP to BAMOTH-BAAL. From there he could see a portion of the people. ... 25:1 "While Israel was staying at ****tim, the people profaned themselves by whoring with the Moabite women, who invited the people to the sacrifices for THEIR god. The people partook of them and worshipped THAT god. Thus, Israel attached itself to BAAL-PEOR, and the LORD was INCENSED with Israel." ...25:16 "The Lord spoke to Moses, saying '...-because of the affair of PEOR..."
HEY, the Hebrew God just NAMED an "other god"!!!!
"Peor" or "Baal-peor" was obviously a DIFFERENT god over a different people in a different geographical place. In Stong's many listings of "Baal", there are several references to "high places" = Baalbec??? Note that the Hebrew "God" did NOT attack "Baal-peor", but instead punished his own people for having worshipped the other god. This strongly implies that Peor = God in rank - NOT "before" but "beside"!
Thanks for the lead, Wallis! Got any more non-Sumerian names of gods you can chase down?
PS: Strong's defines "Peor" as "A Moabite god."
_________________________
Help elevate the status of Uranus from planet to god. Join "UP Uranus", see #250273, 6/27, 09:28AM
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